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ARTHUR RUGER

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a retired social worker and union shop steward, Arthur is an ordained Christian and Viet Nam Era veteran.
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What is killing the Republican Party? Well, for one thing, Pretend Christians

Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:33 PM EST
politics, republican, right-wing, hypocrisy, fundamentalists, literalists
By Arthur Ruger
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The Accused:

Supreme Conservative Republican Evangelical American Moralizers -- S.C.R.E.A.M.

The "Christian" War President

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

"Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."

--George W. Bush

The "Christian" Warrior

"I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."

"We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this,"

"We as Americans, we as Christians, need to understand that that's not the enemy that America's up against. In fact, the enemy that we're up against is called the principality of darkness, he's called Satan. We are in fact in a spiritual battle, ladies and gentlemen, more than we are in a physical battle."

--Lt. General William G. Boykin

The "Christian" War Monger

'We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.

We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

"Not all Muslims may be terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."

"Being nice to people is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity, as opposed to other religions whose tenets are more along the lines of 'kill everyone who doesn't smell bad and doesn't answer to the name Mohammed'"

--Ann Coulter

The "Christian" Bible Quoter & Law School Founder

"The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etc."

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters." "AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates Homosexuals."

"We're fighting against humanism, we're fighting against liberalism...we are fighting against all the systems of Satan that are destroying our nation today...our battle is with Satan himself."

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

"The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etc."

"But you've got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops. And I'm for the president to chase them all over the world. If it takes 10 years, blow them all away in the name of the Lord."

"Most of these feminists are radical, frustrated lesbians, many of them, and man-haters, and failures in their relationships with men, and who have declared war on the male gender. The Biblical condemnation of feminism has to do with its radical philosophy and goals. That's the bottom line."

"I do not believe the homosexual community deserves minority status. One's misbehavior does not qualify him or her for minority status. Blacks, Hispanics, women, etc., are God-ordained minorities who do indeed deserve minority status." 

"We curse the darkness, we're against what the ACLU and Americans United are, and what the crazy runaway liberal judges are doing. We're going to train a few thousand Christian attorneys who are just as radical as the preachers."

"We're here to stay, we're going to bring this nation back and we couldn't care less what you [his opponents] think about it."

--Jerry Falwell

The "Christian" Broadcaster & Pretend Prophet

"There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy moneychangers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?"

 God's Country? "There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore."

"The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening."

I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period.

The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.

--Pat Robertson

The "Christian" Expert on Humility, Self-Righteousness & Homosexuality

"George [Stephanopoulos] you think you ought to lecture me on what a Christian is all about?

"Isn't it amazing that there's such a sizable number of people in the media and in the liberal community that despise this country and its freedoms, and they're doing everything they can to undermine it?"

"Homosexuals are not monogamous. They want to destroy the institution of marriage. It will destroy marriage. It will destroy the Earth."

--James Dobson

The "Christian" Motivator

"The number one virtue in America has become the number one threat, and one of the top two or three threats to the cause of Christ That virtue is tolerance.'

Josh McDowell.

The "Christian" Old Testament Expert on Who God Hates

 "If you got to castrate your miserable self with a piece of rusty barb wire, do it."

"Hear the word of the LORD, America, fag-enablers are worse than the fags themselves, and will be punished in the everlasting lake of fire!"

"You telling these miserable, Hell-bound, bath house-wallowing, anal-copulating fags that God loves them!? You have bats in the belfry!"

"American Veterans are to blame for the fag takeover of this nation. They have the power in their political lobby to influence the zeitgeist, get the fags out of the military, and back in the closet where they belong!"

"Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death."

"God Hates Fags!"

--Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church)

The "Christian" Hypocrite

"The Media is ruled by Satan. But yet I wonder if many Christians fully understand that. Also, will they believe what the Media says, considering that its aim is to steal, kill, and destroy?"

"Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it...Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory."

--Jimmy Swaggart (Jimmy Swaggart Ministries)

The "Christian" Proponent of Joyful Living.

"I think that many people believe that. (Referring to separation of church and state) The only problem is it's really a deception from Satan. Because if God is in fact separated from the government, then we can never possibly have a godly government. And there's no way for America to be good if she's not godly."

"There are more righteous people in this nation that love God than there are evil people. The only problem is the evil people make more noise than we do, and that is so ridiculous.

What we need more than anything are godly men and women that will pass laws based on God's word and moral principles, not laws based on their own particular feelings."

"You know when prayer was taken out of the schools in 1962, it was not really about prayer being taken out of the schools, it was a violent assault against the future of the kingdom of God. Because Satan knew if he could take spirituality away from children that the next generation would not be able to do the kingdom of darkness any damage."

"I know that we all appreciate and thank God for our godly president.

I believe President [sic] Bush is a man that is going to say what is right and he is going to stand up for God no matter what.... I believe that God is going to keep him there to bring restoration to this nation."

--Joyce Meyer, speaking at the "Road To Victory" convention

The "Christian" Respecter of Persons

"With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew."

--Bailey Smith

The "Christian" Dominionists

"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant-baptism and holy communion-must be denied citizenship."

"This is God's world, not Satan's. Christians are the lawful heirs, not non-Christians." 

"So let us be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will be get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God."

"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant--baptism and holy communion--must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel."

--Gary North (Institute for Christian Economics

"But integration and equality are myths; they disguise a new segregation and a new equality...Every social order institutes its own program of separation or segregation. A particular faith and morality is given privileged status and all else is separated for progressive elimination."

--R.J. Rushdoony,

"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil."

--Gary Potter (Catholics for Christian Political Action)

"We are to make Bible-obeying disciples of anybody that gets in our way."

--Jay Grimstead (Coalition on Revival)

The "Christian" Editorialist

"We are approaching a time when Christians, especially, may have to declare the social contract between Enlightenment rationalists and Biblical believers - which formed the basis of the constitution written at our nation's founding - null and void".

--Cal Thomas, Washington Times,

The "Christian" Good Samaritan

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."

"What this is coming down to is who runs the country. It's us against them. It's the good guys versus the bad guys. It's the God-fearing people against the pagans, and some of the pagans are going to church."

--Randall Terry,

The "Christian" Exclusivity Sheriffs

"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol."

--Rev. Joseph Morecraft, Chalcedon Presbyterian Church

"The day after George Bush was elected president again, because of this morals revolution taking place in our country, he allows his vice president to not only put his lesbian daughter on the platform, but to bring her lesbian 'partner' up on the stage with him.

It almost seems to be a slap in the face from the get-go against the very conservatives that re-elected the president at a time when he ought to paying them some homage and respect."

--Joe Glover, president of the Family Policy Network

The "Christian" Constitutionalist

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

--George Bush Sr. (President of the United States)

The "Christian" Jurist

U.S. District Judge Myron H. Thompson asked Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, "Would you acknowledge that Buddhism is a religion?"

Moore replied, "Buddhism was considered a false religion by the forefathers. It is not my definition of religion, no. It was not their definition of religion under the First Amendment of the Constitution."

"I wasn't really asking that," Thompson said. "I was just asking whether religion - within the confines of the First Amendment as you view it historically - [if] the term 'religion' includes Buddhists, the Islamic faith, the Hindus?"

"I don't think so, sir, that Buddhists and other faiths - and I won't speak to all faiths because I'm not a theologian - recognize the Creator, God," Moore replied.

"Some might, but if they do, it's not the God of the Holy Scriptures. And that's why the Bible is used for the very foundation upon which we take our oaths."

--Roy Moore, during court testimony over the Ten Commandments monument he installed in the Alabama Judicial Building

The "Christian" Educator & Political Analyst

In your re-election, God has graciously granted America - though she doesn't deserve it - a reprieve from the agenda of paganism. Put your agenda on the front burner and let it boil. You owe liberals nothing. They despise you because they despise your Christ."

--Bob Jones III to George W. Bush

The "Christian" Evangelist

"I have many Muslim friends, but I want the people of this country to know that the god of Islam is not the Christian god. The god of Islam is not a father. The god of Christianity was the father of Jesus Christ. There's a mood in this country that we'll believe a generic belief. That is not acceptable. Political correctness has run amok in this country."

"This country was not built by Hindus, nor Muslims, nor atheists. It was built by Christian men and women."

"We need a sexual education program that warns young people of the hell they'll create with their own bodies. Outside of marriage, sex kills."

He cites his own experience; he was "sexually active" before his 1974 marriage to his wife, Jane.

Alan Dershowitz said I alienated millions by praying in the name of Jesus Christ.

In what other name should I pray? If a Hindu president was being inaugurated, that president could have summoned a clergyman to pray in the name of Hindu gods."

"I am not attacking Muslims. But how come the Muslim clerics have not gone to ground zero and had a prayer vigil and apologized to the nation in the name of Islam?"

"But where are the Muslim clerics? When people say this is a 'peaceful religion,' don't tell me that. When a suicide bomber straps on a bomb, that's not peaceful. The Baptists are not doing that. Neither are the Pentecostals."

--Franklin Graham, various quotes reported in the Washington Post

The "Christian" Political Activist Org

"While it is true that the United States of America was founded on the sacred principle of religious freedom for all, that liberty was never intended to exalt other religions to the level that Christianity holds in our country's heritage.

Our Founders expected that Christianity -- and no other religion -- would receive support from the government as long as that support did not violate peoples' consciences and their right to worship. They would have found utterly incredible the idea that all religions, including paganism, be treated with equal deference.

As for our Hindu priest friend, the United States is a nation that has historically honored the one true God. Woe be to us on that day when we relegate him to being merely one among countless other deities in the pantheon of theologies."

--Family Research Council, Culture Facts newsletter 9/21/2000, commenting on a Hindu priest giving the opening prayer in the House of Representatives

The "Christian" Expert on Moral Depravity

"The perversion that follows homosexuality is bestiality and then human sacrifice and cannibalism."

--Barbara Blewster, a member of the Church of Latter-Day Saints and the Arizona State Legislature

The "Christian" Patriotic Pontificator

"If you don't want a Christian nation, then go to one of the many nations that are heathen already, rather than perverting ours. You're welcome to come, but leave your religions, your bibles, all your other things back where you came from. Islam and America are opposites. They hate us. They want to kill us. I'm not anti-Jewish or anti-Catholic. I'm anti-Islam because that religion right there is anti-American."

--Jeff Fugate, pastor of Clays Mill Road Baptist Church, Lexington, KY

The "Christian" Experts On Compassionate Capital Punishment

"Those who practice homosexuality should swiftly be put to death by the government. God emphatically condemns the practice of exchanging proper gender characteristics among men and women. God justly calls for the death-penalty for anyone who practices homosexuality."

--Citizens for the Ten Commandments

The "Christian" Expert on Media Integrity

"Let me talk to you about five good things of late ... for which this week I hope you and your family around your Thanksgiving table will praise the Lord. ...

No. 5: America has alternative news media and is no longer held hostage by the major print and broadcast media. I remember a day when ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN and the major print media controlled all the news flow to the American people and we found ourselves getting warped and distorted news.

I thank God now in the 21st century for talk radio, that three hours a day people like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and hundreds of others are telling the truth of what really is going on. I thank God for FOX News Channel. I thank God for the Internet bloggers and the news producers like NewsMax.com, WorldNetDaily.com, even The Drudge Report.

... And we're going to invite PETA [to "Wild Game Night"] as our special guest, P-E-T-A -- People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. We want you to come, we're going to give you a top seat there, so you can sit there and suffer.

This is one of my special groups, another one's the ACLU, another is the NOW -- the National Order of Witches. We've got -- I've got a lot of special groups."

--Jerry Falwell, November 21, 2004 televised sermon

The "Christian" Partisan Greedy Immoral Corrupt Politician

"Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of

'Where did I come from?'

'Why am I here?'

'Where am I going?'

'Does life have any meaningful purpose?'

Only Christianity offers a way to understand that physical and moral border.

Only Christianity offers a comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought, every aspect of creation.

Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world

-- only Christianity."

"Emotional appeals about working families trying to get by on $4.25 an hour are hard to resist. Fortunately, such families do not exist."

- -House Majority Whip Tom DeLay (R-Tex.)

"The "Christian" Wide-Eyed Extra-Terrestrial Exaggerator

"The decline in American pride, patriotism, and piety can be directly attributed to the extensive reading of so-called 'science fiction' by our young people.

This poisonous rot about creatures not of God's making, societies of 'aliens' without a good Christian among them, and raw sex between unhuman beings with three heads and God alone knows what sort of reproductive apparatus keeps our young people from realizing the true will of God."

--Jerry Falwell,

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debmo-571638

Wow, when you put all of these together, it is quite frightening.  The lack of tolerance and Christian values is massive.  The idea that these people know and understand what God or Jesus wants or expects of us is repulsive.  This is the real threat to our country.  I tend to turn off the when I hear these people talk but I may need to start listening so I will know what we are up against.

  • 22 votes
#1 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:20 PM EST
Arthur Ruger

Personally, I think that the environment of the early Bush years - the environment in which most of the quoted statements were confidently made - is now starting to decline.

The other thing is that most of the outrageous comments were made in conversation with their choirs - even on the Christian Broadcast Network when Falwell and Robertson blamed the Sept 11th attacks on God's wrath will all us "left behind" candidates.

I remember wondering if those two realized the irony in their notion that God would use non-Christian but sincerely believing religious Muslim fanatics to do His work rather than prompting judgmental condemning born again Christian literalists who talk like they'd have been more than willing to kill a sinner for Christ.

I used to read some of Falwell's sermons. Rarely did I hear much resembling the spiritual truth that the objective of God is love of one's neighbor; compassion for all and not the herding of humanity into a pearly-gated corral by born-again whip-wielding sheep herders.

  • 14 votes
#1.1 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:33 PM EST
Paul LuceroExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

And all these wars were signed off on by a Democrats in both house and senate.  But I understand your outrage.  My question is why only demonize one party when we have another group of signatures on the documents.

You should consider what that means for the future!

  • 2 votes
#1.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:59 AM EST
ABD3

Wow, when you put all of these together, it is quite frightening. 

My EXACT thoughts!  That's a lot of hate.

why only demonize one party

because they RUN on these items.

  • 16 votes
#1.3 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:32 AM EST
landspirit

These fools have twisted Christianity to promote hate, racism, intolerance and power hungry control.  They are the same as the Islam extremists.  It is from this pool of hate, self promoting righteousness, and intolerance that the Antichrist will come from.  One can already see the form of the Antichrist within the words and minds of these narrow minded idiots.  They claim the Bible is infallible and then trot around ignoring and abusing the words within it.  Their self absorbed ignorance blinds them from the reality that Satan lives and breathes through them. 

  • 15 votes
#1.4 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:36 AM EST
Aimee Franc

Dems don't claim to be going to war for God though, that is the difference. Republican Extremist Christians said those things not the Democrats.

  • 12 votes
#1.5 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:40 AM EST
Paul LuceroRestored

Great so because democrats in Congress were not really committed to action is a bull poop statement.  

The president says go to war YOU should have said, NO., HELL NO!.  

Please people wake up!

You claim moral purity because you did not have the same mind set as the guy next to you when you ordered the American army to shoot the Iraqi dead.

PLEASE!

    #1.6 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:28 AM EST
    xcomunic8ed

    That was chilling reading. People like that is the reason why i became an atheist.

    • 6 votes
    #1.7 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:54 AM EST
    Schroedingers Cat

    X I join you in this! This article is so on target I clipped it and I'm going to share it with others. I am going to e-mail it to all the Holy PROFIT churches I can. I have been saying this since I was a teenager in the 70's, it seems that this past election has loosed all the dark hearted social moralizing monsters, now that they have shown their ugly heads it is time to start lobbing them off and strive towards a future where there is NO litmus test for morality,patriotism or for serving this country in whatever capacity that a person chooses. Religion is a superstitious and illogical form of a system  that always defeats itself because it has no factual scientific base. I have yet to lose a debate with even the most knowlegeable bible thumpers, they always walk away in a horrible mood because they know they have been defeated by the facts. I long for the day when their heads start to explode like the martians in "Mars Attacks"...where is that Slim Whitman album?...wait perhaps something from the great and powerful OZZY would fair better!

    • 2 votes
    #1.8 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:58 PM EST
    Schroedingers Cat

    It's time to un-buckle the Bible Belt! and let us breathe!

    • 4 votes
    #1.9 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:01 PM EST
    sightseer-404010

    Such pomposity! I have a PERSONAL relationship with the Lord, which is why I don't talk about it. If I did, it wouldn't be personal anymore, and it would be impossible for me to be humble, like the dust.

    • 3 votes
    #1.10 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:05 PM EST
    Maureen Mower

    Excellent piece.   Thank you for doing all the "legwork" to put those quotes together.  I would imagine you had to comb through a whole lot of unpleasantness to cull them.

    Clipped to my column and several relevant groups I belong to. 

    • 3 votes
    #1.11 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:16 PM EST
    Mojo96

    These people disgust me.  I look at them and see an ignorant hypocrite.  Unfortunately, they try to represent themselves as the Christian faith.  It breaks my heart to see people become atheist because of these haters.  My own mother who was raised a catholic has done nothing but call Christians hypocrites, haters, and war mongers for the last several years.  I have a message for Sean Hannity and Ann Colter.  Many of those Muslims have a better chance of having our merciful god letting them into heaven, then you ignorant SOBs.

    • 5 votes
    #1.12 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:38 PM EST
    ohiogal-479871

    I think we should give the pretend christians more rope . . . they are hanging themselves and their party. 

    • 3 votes
    #1.13 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:40 PM EST
    RuthyJObservations

    #1.13 - ohiogal - "I think we should give the pretend Christians more rope...they are hanging themselves and their party"  It is easy to pick and choose comments to builld wings for your beliefs, isn't it?  Believing all the crappola written on this thread is going to come back to bite the leftists all in due time.  Enjoy all the rancor while ye may.  Meantime, know that we who are real Christians (people who believe in the Lord our God, Jehovah, regardless of what any of you say) will keep on praying for your soul's salvation.  People have been trying to kill our faith, for centuries.  It lives on.

      #1.14 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:10 PM EST
      ohiogal-479871

      unfortunately, i have heard a lot of these quotes on tv  from the people themselves. I just had forgotten about them.  ann coulter and bush are a few examples. 

      Believing all the crappola written on this thread is going to come back to bite the leftists all in due time.

      Quite an allegation, can you give me a quote that is posted here that isn't factual?

      Meantime, know that we who are real Christians (people who believe in the Lord our God, Jehovah, regardless of what any of you say) will keep on praying for your soul's salvation

      Why are you easily offended, i said pretend christian which shouldn't include you right?

      • 4 votes
      #1.15 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:17 PM EST
      Mojo96

      Meantime, know that we who are real Christians (people who believe in the Lord our God, Jehovah, regardless of what any of you say) will keep on praying for your soul's salvation 

      Hey I'm a christian, but these people above have been blinded by hatred.  I pray every night with the Lord's prayer, Hail Mary, and a prayer for many of my family members.  The truth is, these people don't know what god wants, even if they think they do. (which they don't)

      • 5 votes
      #1.16 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:18 PM EST
      Mojo96

      oops should have said:

       (which they do)

      • 1 vote
      #1.17 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:29 PM EST
      Neesy08

      I consider myself a Christian and I find the quotes above appalling. They are so unChristian, it is enough to make a true Christian to feel ashame at how people have twisted Gods word to their own end. That quote that while all Muslims are not terrorist, but terrorist are Muslims strikes me particularly hard being African-American. How then, does this person define the KKK and their elk? They are terrorist? Does he want them murdered too? What about those members of the IRA? The PLO? Killing people who do not agree with you is not the answer. Pity the fool...

      • 2 votes
      #1.18 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:38 PM EST
      Schroedingers Cat

      Sightseere ,religion IS pomposity in it's purest form. It is pompous because it is fantasy that is called truth by pompous fools. You THINK that you have a "personal relationship with the lord" when all you truly have is a "personal relationship with a figment.

        #1.19 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:41 PM EST
        Andromeda-510639

        "Meantime, know that we who are real Christians (people who believe in the Lord our God, Jehovah, regardless of what any of you say) will keep on praying for your soul's salvation.  People have been trying to kill our faith, for centuries."

        Sadly, if people who believe as this one does really think that their prayers will lead to the salvation of others’ souls, I am afraid they are very, very mistaken.  God listens to all, including those like this one who are filled with hate and prejudice, but conversely, it is all of us who must pray for their lost and tortured souls.  And the only ones who are going to successfully kill “our” faith are the ones such as this who demean, belittle, and slight it, offend the very faith they believe they are defending, through their negativity and loneliness, or is that lowliness. 

        • 2 votes
        #1.20 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:57 PM EST
        corperateties

         I keep remembering something to the effect: Satin would fool the people of earth into believing he is what he  isn't. Something like that.

        Any who....By seeing these quotes. A certain many people out there have all been full of you know what for a long time. They just remind us of the few that are in it for the good of America. And then there are the others. The ones that are not in it for the good of America.

          #1.21 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:03 PM EST
          RachaelMM

          There is no reason for Paul's comment at #1.2 to be collapsed. 

            #1.22 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:33 AM EST
            JEN-357892

            I feel like for some Christianity has become the culprit.  All Chrisitians are not Republicans.  I am not sure how many who can support these kinds of statements believe in the same Christianity that I know.  Furthermore, I am tired of having them represent me.  My God does his own punishing and it is never my job.  I am to love unconditionally.  It does not mean you can walk over me, but it means that I trust Him and my role is to show that love all the more when it is undeserved.

            • 2 votes
            #1.23 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:34 AM EST
            Tea in the Harbor

            The Christian religion has been based on hate since the death of Christ! From the genocide of the Crusades to the intolerance of knowledge of the Dark Ages they have used murder and intolerance as their management technique. First they hated Muslims and next it was pagans, then the hethans of Africa and the Americas. They've finally run out of new societies to hate, so they've turned it on each other, many Christian sects believe that they are the only "true" Christians, that the other sects will be going to Hell when daddy gets home! And of course if that doesn't fill your need for hate, you can always demand to know what genitalia a person plays with and condemn them to eternal damnation for that!

            Faith; an excuse to believe without benefit of research or thought!  

              #1.24 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:33 AM EST
              JEN-357892

              Believe it or not, I think I understand why you think as you do.  I don't agree with you, but I understand.  Unlike like you, I have studied and found that the Word of God translates very well to our world both in what is good and what is bad.  It is all in there.  Our history, the debate about Obama and other signs of things to come is all in there.  Now you may not believe as I do and that is your right, but as I read and understand what is to come, I prefer to keep my faith/trust in God and not man (including those who screw up in their understanding of who we are in Christ) than adapt to the lifestyle that does not include Him.  

              For the record, I am a Christian and I do not hate any group of people or want them dead.  I do not hate those who practice homosexuality or those who say they hate  or have issues with Christians!  I know I am not alone, so the real problem here I think is that your definition is based on a group who have used a title that does not represent all.  Please be careful not to define those who do not believe as you do the very way that offended you or you are no better than those you protest here. 

              • 1 vote
              #1.25 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:54 AM EST
              Dharma Girl

              Jen:

              Thank you for speaking up.  I don't believe you need to condemn the words of the highly publicized, prominent people who are quoted above as much as you need to show another face of Christianity. 

              If those hateful words are all we have to recognize Christians by, particularly if we have had our own unfortunate experiences with hateful people who invoke their God as a righteous authority for their hatred, you are likely to be painted with the same brush.  Thank you for telling us who you are. 

              There are very few (if any) issues that are adequately represented by the viewpoints at the extreme ends, yet without careful, conscious consideration, it seems that is where we let our minds simply shut down.  Everything that helps us counter this tendency is a blessing.

                #1.26 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:44 PM EST
                Dharma Girl

                Tea:

                I think I might understand why you posted what you did, as well.  I have a question for you.

                You link your contention that "The Christian religion has been based on hate" to the time period "since the death of Christ" which sounds reasonable.

                Do you have any idea what your spiritual ancestors were up to during that same period?  It covers some very rough times. 

                If not, or if your spiritual ancestors were Christians...how about your biological ancestors?  Do you know anything of their beliefs, biases, or behavior during the last 2 thousand years or so?

                I am not defending atrocities by any Church or secular organization--my spiritual ancestors were on the receiving end of lethal hatred by at least one major Christian body.  But I think it is not illuminating to pick one group out of an often barbaric 2 thousand years and judge all Christian churches, or the members of all Christian churches by that last 2 thousand years and by our (hopefully) more civilized standards.

                2 thousand years is a long time.  Less than 2 hundred years ago, some of my ancestors on my mother's side owned plantations and were slaveholders in this country.  I know the Bible was used to justify slavery at some times and in some places, and that there were also devout Christians in the militant abolitionist movement.   

                I try to behave myself, and would prefer not to be judged on the evils that my ancestors supported and profited by.  Is there nothing in 2 thousand years that you would rather not take on yourself?

                • 1 vote
                #1.27 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:05 PM EST
                Reply
                SolarGlare

                As I read those,  I think... do they even realize how crazy they sound? How can you preach such intolerance yet consider youself a "good Christian?"

                • 16 votes
                #2 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:02 PM EST
                Mark in Worcester

                I'm sure most of them do  realize just how crazy they sound. But they have to make themselves seem relatable to their base.

                • 8 votes
                #2.1 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:20 PM EST
                Arthur Ruger

                These people for the most part view themselves in a self-concocted heroic light of "bold and courageous." Yet, they and their choirs remain a primary cause of the lack of harmony, lack of social conscience and absence of real moral outrage in this country.

                When it comes to moral outrage, these are Fox News Christians with a hypocrisy and failure to reflect social conscience on a comprehensive and all-inclusive level. It is they who engender legitimate moral outrage against themselves and their words with all that self-righteous preening.

                It is arrogant ignorance sustained by ignorant arrogance.

                • 12 votes
                #2.2 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:47 PM EST
                Sick'N'Tired'Of'It

                Actually, I think it has to do with the human mind and what it does. Once brainwashed, you will believe anything  so, I don't think that these declarations sound at all strange to them or their followers- they just simply are. Seriously, I think things like Jonestown and Heaven's Gate got notice because of the end results: they killed themselves. But, where is it really actually read as conventional wisdom that such cults have to do that? Wouldn't it stand to reason that eventually some group or another would happen upon the concept of converting the entire country instead? Frankly? I'm sure someone is going to disagree with me, but I don't just think that they would, I think that they already have.

                • 8 votes
                #2.3 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:11 AM EST
                jdoyle

                And all these wars were signed off on by a Democrats in both house and senate.

                After being lied to about them.

                Please dont try to rewrite history; to many of us still recall the real facts.

                I think this really started back with the unholy alliance of Reagan with the Christian right: they fed off each other's bigotry and contempt for the poor, while waving the specter of COMMUNISM in our faces. Many frightened gullible people fell for the big lie.

                • 7 votes
                #2.4 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:14 AM EST
                Sick'N'Tired'Of'It

                Hmmm.... I don't recall saying anything at all about the wars or who was lied to or who signed off on it or even history. I made a statement concerning the mindset that is needed to make many of the statements listed above. I wasn't even talking politics save as a byproduct of the indoctrinated mind.

                But you know what? Your immediate need to go into that tells me and anyone else reading these posts all we need to know about what your agenda is.

                • 3 votes
                #2.5 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:53 AM EST
                jdoyle

                Sorry: My response was to 1.2 and

                And all these wars were signed off on by a Democrats in both house and senate.

                should have been a quote.

                • 3 votes
                #2.6 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:24 AM EST
                Kim-401394

                I remember hearing the "christians" on the 700 club praying for the death of Superior court judges. And they still pray for the death of others. Jesus woul;dn't recognize his lessons as far as the tightie-righties preach it!

                • 6 votes
                #2.7 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:11 PM EST
                The_Atheist

                Unfortunately, no.....they do not realize how crazy they sound.  They have been brainwashed by religion, and nothing can make them see reality in the same way as people on the outside of their religion/cult.  I was raised in this atmosphere, and it took me years to get all that crap out of my head......for adults, who don't typically like to realize that everything they always believed in is false, it is even more difficult.  They are doing gods work......or at least that is their perception of the illusion.

                • 2 votes
                #2.8 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:05 PM EST
                RuthyJObservations

                "Do they even realize how crazy THEY sound?  Listen to yourselves!  Some of the ugliest stuff ever written is done right here, right now, by Anti-Christians, Liberals, Democrats, Atheists, Fascists, Communits.  Freedom of speech at its lowest. 

                • 1 vote
                #2.9 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:34 PM EST
                ohiogal-479871

                RuthyJObservations specific examples?

                • 4 votes
                #2.10 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:43 PM EST
                goldminor

                Actually, the question should not be 'how crazy they sound' , but how blindingly insane they are that they can twist original christian principles to such an extreme. I see no difference between them and those extreme clerics who issue their fatwahs, as if they  somehow have the right to speak for God. Especially when there is so much written in  the bible about not judging others.

                • 3 votes
                #2.11 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:11 PM EST
                chick76

                Ruthy

                Hate speech is hate speech no matter who says it.  Do not for one second think that "Christians" get a pass merely because they label themselves as "Christians."

                • 3 votes
                #2.12 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:32 PM EST
                corperateties

                Don't forget. Its not just "Brainwashing."

                Some of those on the 700club and the others that are not in that particular cult. Are flat out "Moneywashed." They bring in so much money from they're church. Or the millions of millions of followers (remember television) outside the church walls. These people are so filthy, filthy rich that they cannot stop what they do. Even if it is wrong in the eyes of the audience or god or you or me. It doesn't matter. Just picture a  heroin,cocaine, or a crystal meth addict. Just switch the drugs out for money and BAM! 

                 up a notch.

                • 1 vote
                #2.13 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:35 PM EST
                Sick'N'Tired'Of'It

                jdoyle,

                Oh, sorry then. (wince), Given the subject matter on this thread your post sounded like just another rant from the very people we were discussing. Looking back through the posts though. You were quoting someone- it just didn't look like it to me until you clarified.

                • 1 vote
                #2.14 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:53 AM EST
                sightseer-404010

                You THINK you have a personale relationship with the Lord..

                         Why, thank you, JosephP, for letting me know what I THINK. I am certain I would never have figured it out were it not for your help. Pip.

                  #2.15 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:30 AM EST
                  Reply
                  Trog-221687

                  Brilliant! Hypocrisy in their own words.

                  • 12 votes
                  Reply#3 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:03 PM EST
                  Not by might, nor power

                  Arthur Ruger:  Excellent work compiling all these quotes, sir.  Hats off.

                  These are strong and stinging indictments against the christian church in the america.

                  May God grant us (christians) repentance and forgiveness where we have been wrong and for those we have wronged, may God grant them healing and restoration.

                  • 12 votes
                  Reply#4 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:14 PM EST
                  Arthur Ruger

                  Thank you.

                  As a younger more active Christian, I did not see Jesus as calling Christians to proclaim that neighbors are to  come to churches and be saved - but to send us out of our chapels and into the darkness with a candle of compassion and action.

                  Where there is blindness, I saw in Jesus the desire of God's that we strive for vision - a life led by spirit and knowledge of the God of Compassion.

                  If we are to repent it ought to be a repentance to wholeness from blind guilt, sorrow and a sense of condemnation at the hands of those who deem themselves righteous rather than upright.

                  • 12 votes
                  #4.1 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:03 PM EST
                  Reply
                  hippiechick68

                  I was reluctant to click on this article based on the title, but I am so glad that I did. 

                  This is quite the collection of quotes...well done, sir.  I must say I could only skim them as my blood pressure was beginning to rise and smoke come out my ears...but point well made. 

                  Regardless of your spiritual or religious affiliation/beliefs, one thing is for certain.. we can contribute to making the world a better, more loving, inclusive place.....or we can all fall together.  We choose this each day. 

                  • 15 votes
                  Reply#5 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:27 PM EST
                  Arthur Ruger

                  I agree. We do choose every day. Some however perhaps only think about it weekly or less frequently.

                  Although many Christians are not actively and outwardly religious except perhaps on rare Sundays, special holidays or family events, there are millions who sit in congregations and outwardly celebrate their religion in a spirit of worship and fellowship every week.

                  Yet many of these do not cross the line into the politics-and-religion discourse. They are content in their lives but are they content with what they are told from the pulpit or see and hear on television and radio?

                  • 6 votes
                  #5.1 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:08 PM EST
                  Aimee Franc

                  It made my blood pressure go up to hippiechick. It reminds me of what my Dad would say. Republican rubbish.

                  • 1 vote
                  #5.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:58 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Fausts son

                  These people have one thing in common, a lust for power, a lust for control of other peoples lives, they should first look to their own lives but that would take introspection, something intolerant people have no time for.

                  • 15 votes
                  Reply#6 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:18 PM EST
                  Arthur Ruger

                  I've always like this quote and have pasted it here:

                  "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible."

                  -- Jamie Raskin, a professor of Constitutional Law at American University and candidate running in the Democratic primary for Maryland State Senate

                  • 16 votes
                  #6.1 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:12 PM EST
                  Reply
                  W Scott Lincoln

                  Actually, those kinds of people aren't Christians.  A better term is "Christianists".  Those are the ones that think that even though they never learned a single word of hebrew, they know exactly what every part of the bible says and furthermore, it should be taken literally, except for all the stuff that has nothing to do with gays in leviticus.  We can't make polyester and seafood illegal, after all.

                  • 12 votes
                  #7 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:24 PM EST
                  Arthur Ruger

                  For me literal thinking is a hot button.

                  Condemnation of resistance to religious conformity brings us to a place of hearing the self-appointed tell us that

                  'My Jesus is not your Jesus. My Savior is not your Savior. I own the true redeemer and you can only call Him Savior & Redeemer if I agree with you. You can only call Jesus your friend if I agree with what you mean by that. You can only resist evil as I define evil. Any other resistance to an evil of your own perception is heresy and God will punish you for that and for not believing me.'"

                  And, of course, the implied ...

                  "Me and God. Ain't that right God?"

                  • 9 votes
                  #7.1 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:17 PM EST
                  Schroedingers Cat

                  We also need to kick them out of the Air Force Academy as soon as possible, there has to be some constitutional law or amendment that could not only expel them but keep the out as long as they try to force Evangelical christianity on the others students. If these students want it then so be it but some Jewish students have been driven out as well as others that these zealots choose to harass.

                  • 1 vote
                  #7.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:14 PM EST
                  Mojo96

                  My religion says the gays will be damned, but i don't think we should hate them.

                  • 2 votes
                  #7.3 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:34 PM EST
                  Aimee Franc

                  Do you think they will be damned mojo? Do you take everything the Bible says literally?

                    #7.4 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:50 PM EST
                    Mojo96

                    The bible is literal most of the time and I believe that gays are sinning.  Sure god might judge them and send them to hell or forgive them, depending on their faith torward the Lord.  Though some parts of the bible are more metaphorical.  Such as you must rip out the eye you sinned with.  That particular verse has more meaning, such as to repent and remove the guilt of sin and ask for god's forgiveness.

                    Lastly, god loves all sinners (Every human on Earth).  He loves the gays, Bush, Obama, Osama Bin Laden, etc.  He does not want us to hate each other, but to love each other, forgive each other, pray for each other and hope we all except the Lord and each other to achieve peace.

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.5 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:04 PM EST
                    gecko85

                    The bible is literal most of the time

                    Actually, the bible is literal none of the time. For one thing, I'm 99.99% sure the only bible you've read is an English translation. Many of the original Hebrew and/or Greek words have no direct translation and have been often misinterpreted.

                    Also, the bible is a collection of stories, allegories, parables, and metaphors that were handed down by word of mouth for centuries before ever being committed to paper and turned into the bible.The words "abomination" and "homosexual" are the most misinterpreted words in the English translations of the bible.

                    What I find interesting is that people who often quote the bible literally, do so by cherry picking only the passeges they want, and most often they come from the old testament (which is NOT what Christianity is based on...Christianity is based on the New Testament.)

                    If you REALLY believe the bible is literal, then you must:

                    * Support killing all women who have premarital sex: ( But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.)

                    * Support killing all adulterers: (If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.)

                    * Support banning women from wearing pants, as Deuteronomy 22 says it's an abomination unto God. ( The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.)

                    * Support banning all blended fabric clothing. (Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.)

                    So, you can't pick and choose your literal translations to only support what you want. Take them all, or take none.

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.6 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:34 PM EST
                    Not by might, nor power

                      -gecko85    (Christianity is based on the New Testament.)

                       So you have heard of it.  The New Testament.   That makes that logic trap you set ineffective.  In the Gospels, which are in the New Testament, Jesus said, in Matthew chapter 5  "You have heard, (it said in the Old Testament,) . . . but I'm saying . . ."  Because He was ushering in a totally new 'testament' or covenant.  We're now are under grace.

                    "If you REALLY believe the Bible is literal, then you must *support:"

                    False.  In fact, if any one literal believes the Bible, if they must do anything, they mustn't doubt that the Bible is what it says it is, and act accordingly.  But as for the law of the Old Testament, no christian is obligated to keep it.  We are not under the law.

                     "So, you can't pick and choose your literal translations to only support what you want. Take them all, or take none.'

                    Gecko85,  Are you a clergyman or a minister, or priest, or rabbi? Because it appears that you are telling someone what to and what not to believe.  Do you have that right? 

                    Take them all or take none?   I'll take them all. 

                     The Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the Testimony of the Lord is sure, making the simple wise. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the Commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The Fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the Judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

                      More to be desired are they than gold.  Yes, more than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.  Moreover by them is Your servant warned: And in obeying them,  there is great reward.

                    Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults.

                    This is from the Book of Psalms 19

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.7 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:49 PM EST
                    Aimee Franc

                    Mojo, I like what you said. You have a good heart. Not by might: Good rebuttal.

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.8 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:06 PM EST
                    Mojo96

                    Thank you, not by might and Aimee.

                    To gecko85:  Besides, that would mean Jesus didn't follow the bible either.  He saved Mary Magdalen from being stoned to death, and she was a prostitute.  Have you ever heard of "he who is without sin may throw the first stone"?

                    Besides, Christians believe in both testaments.  We just are true to Jesus.

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.9 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:14 PM EST
                    chick76

                    Mojo,

                    How does one decide which parts of the bible should be taken literally and which not?  Do you rely on a pastor or is it more your choice?

                    Not by might nor power,

                    How can you say that you are not obligated to follow the Old Testament? If it is the word of the Lord how can you not follow it?

                      #7.10 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:44 PM EST
                      gecko85

                      But as for the law of the Old Testament, no christian is obligated to keep it.  We are not under the law.

                      Yet, plenty of Christians cherry pick certain passages when it suits them, telling the masses they *must* obey God's word, then ignore others as they see fit. Are you not able to see the hypocrisy in that?

                      See, I'm not talking about the majority of Christians, who know that the Bible isn't to be taken literally, word for word. I'm talking about those who DO take the Bible literally, yet conveniently ignore the parts they don't like. People like the WBC.

                      • 2 votes
                      #7.11 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:00 PM EST
                      Arthur Ruger

                      Many have become dull in understanding - lazy even - and have given away too much personal will to preachers of kindergarten talking points.

                      By now we ought to be teachers ourselves rather than lazy Christians who go to meeting and let someone else do all the talking.

                      Perhaps some are those who need someone else to teach again the basic elements of genuine spirituality.

                      Perhaps some believe that the shallowest among us who are able to memorize verses are chosen because The Father placed the highest regard on they who memorize the most.

                      In our need, are not such as those the least able to respond to our need for milk?

                      Memorizers want us to believe that we are receiving solid food but preach to us as if we  were still infants, unskilled in the word of upright living.

                      If the best your preacher or your pious Christian politician can do is to declare that homosexuals and homosexuality is more of a threat to the United States than terrorism, perhaps you'd best understand that they who say such stuff still need milk themselves.

                      Solid food is for the mature; those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

                      That's what it says in Hebrews 5.

                      I found it there, figured it out and believed it before any milk-needer could tell me that my conclusions are not "biblical" ... whatever that means.

                      • 2 votes
                      #7.12 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:57 PM EST
                      Not by might, nor power

                      How can you say that you are not obligated to follow the Old Testament? If it is the word of the Lord how can you not follow it?  chick76

                      Thanks for asking.

                      It is absolutely true that both the New and the Old Testaments are the Word of the Lord: For it is written "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof. for correction, for instruction in righteousness.  2Timothy 3:16

                      The whole of scripture is God inspired.  God loves us and wants to teach us.  Everything written about in both testaments, believers can study and learn from and grow.  Everything. Still, trying to be right with God by keeping His Commandments, the Law, and not sinning is impossible.  The only one who could ever keep the law without sinning once ever was Jesus Christ.

                       The Law was given by Moses from God. There is nothing wrong with the Law of God.  The law of God is holy and righteous and good.  However, we ALL are born with a fallen, sinful, human nature we can't keep the Law flawlessly, even when we know it, nor can we be made right with God by trying to keep it.  

                      For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes.  Romans 10:4   For every believer, any true believer in the death of Jesus for their sins and His resurrection from the dead, their faith is accounted as righteousness.  That means God now considers them righteous, not because their good works. Certainly not for their wicked works.  God has declared them righteous because of their faith.  Not because they tried to keep the 10 Commandments.

                      Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might justified by the faith of Christ, not by the works of the law. For by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified.  Galatians 2:16

                      Justified means to be declared righteous by God.  Just as if you never sinned.

                      Because God is Holy, sin has to be dealt with, so The Old Testament Law contained the means by which people living in that time could have their sins atoned for. Every year on the Day of Atonement they would sacrifice calves, goats, bulls.  And God, since He commanded Moses to do it for this purpose, God forgave the sins of the people for another year. The Old Testament was a foreshadowing of the New.  Because it is impossible that the blood of animals can take away sins. They were just covered for another year. 

                       Until God sent His sinless Son Jesus to die on a cross for us. He was the Perfect Sacrifice,      (The Lamb of God) the Old Testament was pointing to.  "For this is My Blood of the New Testament/New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."  Jesus said.  Mt 26:28

                      It is written," For this is the Covenant, saith the Lord. . . I will put My Laws in to the their minds and write them on their hearts, and I will be a God to them, and they shall be My people. For all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and iniquities I will remember no more." in that He says, A New Covenant/New Testament. He has made the first old. Now that which is decaying and becoming old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:10,12   

                       For it is God who works in us both to to do and to choose what pleases HIM.  Phil 2:13

                       For this is the work of God that you believe on Him whom He has sent.  Jesus said.               John 6:29

                       For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto to good works which God has foreordained for us to walk in.  Ephesians 2:10

                      The New Testament was written for Christians.  As we spend time in the Word of God and prayer, God begins to lead us by His Spirit, by faith.  Because His Word is in our hearts and in minds.

                        #7.13 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:30 AM EST
                        sightseer-404010

                        New Testament, Old Testament, I gotta quote, you gotta quote, he's gotta quote. Whatever. Robin Williams has said that fighting over religious beliefs is like two children arguing about who has the best invisible friend.

                        • 2 votes
                        #7.14 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:27 AM EST
                        W Scott Lincoln

                        Well lets just make sure that we can out Bible-quote everyone else.  Becuase we all know that that in it of itself makes you a better christian.  Or what we could do is look up the original Hebrew texts, look at what their possible translations are, and put them in the context of the era.  This is called "thinking" and should be applied liberally before any and all exposure to "judging".  By doing so, Mojo, you will likely find that the bible really says very little about sexual orientation as we know it today, and in fact being gay isn't a sin.  By not doing so, you must also follow all the other English translations of the Old Testament literally, which means the everyone is American is damned beyond all belief.  We better pass amendments against the clothing and seafood industries as soon as possible!

                        • 2 votes
                        #7.15 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:56 PM EST
                        Irene-498401

                        Lincoln, totally!

                        In the good ol' dark ages this bible readin' used to be called heresy and askin' questions would put you on a stake!

                        Shouldn't religion be able to stand by it's own words, and wouldn't we'll all be stronger for it?

                          #7.16 - Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:42 AM EST
                          Born Again Agnostic

                          Shouldn't religion be able to stand by it's own words, and wouldn't we'll all be stronger for it?

                          Yes, but then theist would have to face the fact that their god was no different than the boogieman...

                            #7.17 - Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:41 PM EST
                            Irene-498401

                            One can also see in the neuroscientific research of consciousness that the mental boundaries between reality and illusion are sketchier than we think.

                            If you take the perspective that the world we inhabit is a creation of the mind, a construction of the brain, it's possible to get mind bendingly agnostic about the real world also.

                              #7.18 - Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:18 PM EST
                              Reply
                              newsblog903

                              Right wing Evangelicals are the death of the Republican party.  The writing is on the wall so why do moderate Republicans tolerate them?  Why do any of us tolerate them?  I find their minding every one's business offensive.  Leave it in church and stay out of government. 

                              • 16 votes
                              Reply#8 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:24 PM EST
                              Arthur Ruger

                              We are not better off for all these years of religious demagoguery.

                              Lacking spiritual maturity, Christian evangelical literalists splash around in the shallow end of the pool; blind guides who lead genuine believers into fools' errands destructive to the nation's spiritual soul.

                              • 9 votes
                              #8.1 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:23 PM EST
                              Reply
                              VMS

                              Great article!!  Thank you.

                              • 6 votes
                              Reply#9 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:41 PM EST
                              energynet

                              wow! All kinds of trolls out there.

                              • 5 votes
                              Reply#10 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:16 PM EST
                              Schroedingers Cat

                              Yeah...trolls carrying bibles!

                                #10.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:42 PM EST
                                Reply
                                TarchonTheEtruscanDeleted
                                bluearcher

                                Bible Warning Label...it just never goes out-of-time.

                                WARNING: This a work of fiction. Do NOT TAKE it literally. 

                                CONTENT ADVISORY:

                                Contains verses descriptive or advocating suicide, incest, bestiality, sadomasochism, sexual activity in a violent context, murder, morbid violence, use of drugs or alcohol, homosexuality, voyeurism, revenge, undermining of authority figures, lawlessness and human rights violations and atrocities.

                                EXPOSURE WARNING: Exposure to contents for extended periods of time or during formative years in children may cause delusions, hallucinations, decrease cognitive and objective reasoning abilities, and in extreme cases, pathological disorders, hatred, bigotry, violence including but not limited to fanaticism, murder and genocide.” endanger your mental health and life”.

                                • 15 votes
                                Reply#12 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:29 PM EST
                                xcomunic8ed

                                That should be on the cover of every holy book.

                                • 4 votes
                                #12.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:57 AM EST
                                sightseer-404010

                                Only one warning label is required: Do not open if you're a dumdass.

                                • 1 vote
                                #12.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:02 PM EST
                                goldminor

                                nice one, sightseer

                                  #12.3 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:23 PM EST
                                  Reply
                                  Arthur Ruger

                                  Not an outdated warning you have there.

                                  Makes me think of the ancient Gnostics or the Cathars.

                                  Wouldn't you really like to know exactly what the historical Gnostics believed rather than have the primary body of information about them consist of historical hysterical Catholic denunciations that were used to justify inquisitions and murder?

                                  It's like trying to understand Barack Obama by only reading chain emails or listening to Sarah Palin.

                                  One thing I understand is that the Gnostics considered the O.T. God the demiurge and an imposter.

                                  • 7 votes
                                  Reply#13 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:38 PM EST
                                  Bernard-372061

                                  Conservative Christianity shares an eery parallel with war mongers well brought out here in these quotes. Republican War Mongers have for too long relied on conservative christian support and it's time to call them out.

                                  Regardless of the religion, fanaticism, and conservativism are evils of society and the enemy of progress.

                                  Good post!

                                  • 6 votes
                                  Reply#14 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:10 AM EST
                                  Irene-498401

                                  Whoa, what a collection of quotes. Gave me a headache. Thank you for your effort of collecting and sharing.

                                  How come none of them are literal about this stuff in the bible?:

                                  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.~1 John 3:11~

                                  or this:

                                  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;  --Matthew 5:44

                                  ....and that part about turning the other cheek, and love thy neighbor as thyself, and judge not lest ye be judged......

                                  • 8 votes
                                  Reply#15 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:40 AM EST
                                  redeemed

                                  i read em and i find some of them that are not what I would say

                                  well i agree with Irene and i also wanna make a point that the bible is all real...yes bluearcher stop your fantasizing that the Holy Bible is false 

                                  • 1 vote
                                  Reply#16 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:11 AM EST
                                  Schroedingers Cat

                                  Redeemed ..and why don't YOU stop fantasizing that it's REAL! the book exists that is it! Hey Star Trek books exist and you don't see people condemming others that don't read them. Your argument is weak at best.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #16.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:19 PM EST
                                  Reply
                                  metonitoo

                                  It Is Not Just Christian Republicans ...

                                  #1- The Republican Voter must 1st decide if "Trickle-Down" economics is worth losing all future elections - now that most Middle-Economic-Strata Americans realize that the wealth never trickles down to them and their well-intended "Tax-Breaks' are venture capital for Foreign Start-up rather than New-Product Invention/Manufacturing here in the USA.

                                  #2- The Republican Voter (Party) must decide if "Unilateral, Pre-emptive, preventive, military strikes/wars IS ReallyThe Republican Foreign Policy Mantra and if that Foreign Policy is also worth losing all future elections - now that most of the 'International Friends' we had are disgusted with that policy stance and the American Voter wants a 'true coalition' Before we send in troops AND they want the Powell Doctrine of both the 'break-it, you fix it' non-military complement as well as the overwhelming force uniform complement.

                                  3rd - The Republican Voter must decide if ALL candidates and elected officials of their 'tent' Must be solidly behind the old "Jerry Falwell" exclusionary right wing mantra that teach only text approved by the Sadducees/Pharisees/Taliban with a cross/Evangelical elders.

                                  After that...well... depends on who voters have left knowing things like the VP does not Control the Senate, Africa is a Continent, Pre-Conditions in Foreign Policy are not carrots, or find a smart 5th grader to lead them back to the Party of Abe Lincoln ...

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #17 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:18 AM EST
                                  RushRules

                                  Simple math 1

                                  Corporate tax in the US 35%

                                  Corporate tax in Ireland 11%

                                  Which country would bring a multibillion dollar company the most profit for their shareholders?

                                  Simple math 2

                                  Company is "Patriotic" enough to stay here and pay the extra millions in taxes. Government increases corporate tax by 1%. Companies answer to shareholders. They lose money, stocks go down and company loses value. So who pays that 1%? Increased pricing. Increased prices means less sales, less sales mean less profit, so then even higher prices and so on and so on. Trickle-down is a no brainer. Don't believe me? You don't have to. Watch what happens to inflation over the next 4 years. Also watch how many companies move out of the country when the corp. tax is raised.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #17.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:35 AM EST
                                  Dharma Girl

                                  You bet, I guess all right-thinking people were just thanking God we were so lucky to have the last 8 years of Republican tax cuts with the corporations keeping operations here in our country, hiring good old home-grown Americans.  It's going to be a terrible shock when they start outsourcing.  Boy are people going to be surprised.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #17.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:52 AM EST
                                  RushRules

                                  I work all over the world fixing equipment. I just got back from overseas a couple of weeks ago. Know where I was working? An American company. When companies leave, I make more, so this isn't going to hurt me. That's not why I am saying it.

                                  Belittle the sentiment if it makes you feel better. But numbers are numbers, and at the end of the day, the ONLY thing people are really caring about? Feeding and taking care of their family. Doesn't make us "greedy". It makes us human.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #17.3 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:01 PM EST
                                  RushRules

                                  You bet, I guess all right-thinking people were just thanking God we were so lucky to have the last 8 years of Republican tax cuts with the corporations keeping operations here in our country, hiring good old home-grown Americans.  It's going to be a terrible shock when they start outsourcing.  Boy are people going to be surprised.

                                  Ok, you have my take on EXACTLY why corporations will move overseas. Can you tell me EXACTLY what is going to keep them here? "Boy are they going to be surprised" really isn't a plan.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #17.4 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:06 PM EST
                                  Dharma Girl

                                  Again, I didn't mean to be cryptic, just sarcastic.  "Boy are they going to be suprised" --not a plan.  Your take ignores that it has been happening under the Bush tax scheme.  Even though you obviously know that.

                                  We have lost bazillions of jobs to outsourcing overseas in the last 8 years, WITH President Bush's tax cuts.  You posted that you and yours have done quite well, so I understand that you don't care about the people it's happened to, but statements like yours above, which blithely ignore that its already happened under the scheme you prefer are not honest in my opinion.

                                  "Oh, no--if Obama gets his way, then EXACTLY WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING ALL THE TIME THAT BUSH HAD HIS WAY is going to happen!"

                                    #17.5 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:28 PM EST
                                    Crusher.

                                    D Holmes

                                    I'm not sure how taxes coorelates to religious fanatics.  Unless of course you might be making the case that churches need to start paying taxes since they try to persuade their congregations not to vote for Democrats and thusly breaking the law.  Try to stay on topic please

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #17.6 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:30 PM EST
                                    RushRules

                                    Just a guess here, but maybe if you go one step higher and read the post it was in response to you will understand? Someone says trickle down economics doesn't work and if you don't agree, you can't comment?

                                    Try to look at the WHOLE story first. THEN comment. ;)

                                    Oh I know. Metonitoo is a Democrat so they no reason for them to stay "on topic". lol

                                    I love it.

                                      #17.7 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:26 PM EST
                                      ohiogal-479871

                                      D holmes- no, YOU need to read metonitoo comments.  Here I'll help

                                      The title of the article:

                                       What is killing the Republican Party? Well, for one thing, Pretend Christians

                                      metonitoo's comment

                                      It Is Not Just Christian Republicans ...

                                      #1- The Republican Voter must 1st decide if "Trickle-Down" economics is worth losing all future elections . . . . 

                                      Then your comment

                                      Simple math 1

                                      Corporate tax in the US 35%

                                      Corporate tax in Ireland 11%

                                      Which country would bring a multibillion dollar company the most profit for their shareholders

                                       WTF does your tax policy rhetoric(esp one involving shareholders) have anything to do with: what is killing the republican party? 

                                      Before you start hurling insults, maybe you go back to English 100 and relearn what a main idea is.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #17.8 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:55 PM EST
                                      RushRules

                                      ok. Now I understand.

                                      Here is the definition of WHAT trickle down economics is: Give tax breaks to corporations (owned by sharelholders), they in turn lower their prices to consumers. Profits stay the same so shareholders investments aren't hurt. And therefore, rather than a taxbreak for the middle class (which isn't worth the paper it's printed on), and a tax increase on corporations (creating higher prices and inflation), you have a win-win, where all consumer goods are cheaper.

                                      Sorry. I didn't know you didn't understand "trickle down".

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #17.9 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:15 PM EST
                                      ohiogal-479871

                                      great, now that we both understand the definition i'm still waiting for you to tie it in to the topic.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #17.10 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:07 PM EST
                                      RushRules

                                      You're joking, right?

                                      The post was 17.1, not 17. It was in response to the person stating that trickle down economics is a bad thing. As for topic, I suppose I can say this....

                                      Christians are hurting the Rebublican party but Barry O is nothing but socialist scum, but since it isn't on topic, no one is allowed to repond to the Barry comment? Why do I get the feeling you are antagonizing? Do you think everyone else is blind to the true order of the posts and will therefore be applauding your attempt to attack the "mean ole pubby"?

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #17.11 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:23 PM EST
                                      ohiogal-479871

                                      oh geez, why bother, here I'll help you.

                                      Montitoo- While christian philosophies have recently caused the republican party to fall under increased scrutiny, our tax policy has not. I believe that returning to fundamental principals of smaller government, tax cuts, and allowing the market to balance itself, is the very essence of trickle down economics. 

                                      Keynesian economics will not be successful because while it focuses on increasing demand, it dosen't account for job creation. It is for this reason that  I believe that supply side economics is the best theological model. 

                                      Also, you have to realize that America is not a protectionist country because we compete all over the world we have to ensure that our country remains the frontrunner for buisness growth. 

                                       If we keep our cooperate taxes as low as Ireleand (11%), we can encourages our businesses to stay inland which would result in job creation and as a result initiate consumer spending.  In summary, though I can't say if I believe or don't believe that Christianity has been the result of the recent public backlash against the republicans, I can say that trickle down economics is not what is killing the republican party.

                                      There ya go D-homie! You can post this argument all over newsvine as your own if you want!  Tis' the season!

                                        #17.12 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:34 PM EST
                                        ohiogal-479871

                                        Hey if you want me to give you a logical way to talk about barack obama's polices, ur going to have to pay me.  I know its the holidays and all but you only get one freebie.

                                          #17.13 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:37 PM EST
                                          RushRules

                                          Well, first off, that isn't even close to what I believe, but maybe you can attack yourself now?

                                          I simply was stating that because trickle down economics DO work, the republican party will never abandon that phylosophy. We just went through the most prosperous 7 years in history, but yet dem's couldn't go through a single day without saying "the world is falling apart" because they hated Bush and the fact that he wasn't a "Poll Chaser". And before you slam the last one year, you might do some checking and see who was in charge of the mortgage people (FM twins).

                                          There is nothing wrong with the Republican party or it's phylosophies. No, as an agnostic, I don't agree with a lot of them, but they don't throw me out of the club for thinking differently. If anyone REALLY thinks that the Republican party is dying, I hope you aren't too surprised in 2010 (next election cycle).

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #17.14 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:43 PM EST
                                          RushRules

                                          I've read every one of Barry's books. I KNOW his policies. Probably better than most of the people here. Fortunately, after today's press conference, it appears he may be listening to reason. I noticed that when questioned about Bush tax cuts, he wasn't nearly so gung ho on "tax the rich till they bleed". I had the stock market right next to him speaking. Up until that point the market had dropped almost 200 points. As soon as he took a lighter stance.....well, I'm sure you saw how the market ended.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #17.15 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:52 PM EST
                                          ohiogal-479871

                                          haha!  well i wont pull a couric and belabor the point. ;P So, I'll move on.

                                          There is nothing wrong with the Republican party or it's phylosophies

                                            But I am curious, if nothing was wrong with the republican party then what happend this year?  Why is the GOP scratching their heads and whining about thier future.  You have republicans jumping ship and online GOP sites asking for people to put suggestions in the suggestion box. 

                                          Also I see you are trying to tie in the stock market to Obama.  Your ideas skip around. So I'm having a hard time understanding your reasons for bringing this up.

                                           But since we're on it,  I wonder what your theroy is about the why the stock market crashed everytime bush and paulson spoke, and what do you think about it jumping when geithner was nominated. 

                                          IMO the stock market has been so chaotic its hard to tie its ups and downs to any one reason.  I try to follow up on what the economists are saying, but even they are scratching their heads in confusion. 

                                          Also I have Obama's books and I'm not sure which policy you are refering to.  Why don't you tell me and I will look it up and re-read it.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #17.16 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:14 PM EST
                                          chick76

                                          D Holmles

                                          "We just went through the most prosperous 7 years in history"

                                          This is what you said, which I find most amusing.  The last 7 years of so called prosperity just came crashing down because they were not years of TRUE prosperity.  True prosperity does not come to a crashing halt.  You can't blame all of this on the FM twins either.  Nice try.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #17.17 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:52 PM EST
                                          Arthur Ruger

                                          Citizens who do not attend the official American Economic Church face manipulated ruination. This is part of the larger overall fraud of a religion that is the equal of Christianity among wealthier and corporate Americans.

                                          Led by the ilk of economic theologies spewing forth from an assortment of corporate-sponsored think tanks and theoretical strategists of the Grover Norquist ilk, the economic theology of number-crunched corporate capitalism is as sterile and empty as the whited-sepulchre of literal Christianity's 'innerant and absolute Bible."

                                          Both are fixed and inflexible ideologies built upon concepts and extrapolations now turned to stone. Neither take into account the most powerful force that always successfully resists mindless adherence to a fixed dogma ... human nature.

                                          Much like the Pharisaic Falwells, Robertsons and LaHayes, these current self-appointed born-again purveyors of economic theory inevitably run into problems when human masses don't follow the playbook.

                                          Just as many Christians have demonstrated that not all of us willingly live lives as blind followers of rigid Scribes and judgemental Pharisees, we all do not manage our economic lives according to some wise and proven dogma of capitalism.

                                          And just like Christian history has demonstrated overwhelmingly the human capacity for unrighteous dominion, crusades, inquisitions and outright murder, economic history is replete with evidence of the human capacity for unrighteous economic dominion, economic crusade, inquisition, manipulation and in some cases the outright murder of citizens who did not attend the official economic church.

                                          Moneyed capitalism lies behind the election fraud - an action that betrays any notion that unrestricted free-market activity is driven by a natural desire of all participants for the highest good of all concerned.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #17.18 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:14 PM EST
                                          Trog-221687

                                          D Holmes

                                          Your ignoring the diffeerence between tax rate and tax revenue.

                                           As the Washington Post and the non-profit group Think Progress.org point out, "between 1998 and 2005, 'about two-thirds of corporations operating in the United States did not pay taxes.'"

                                          And your off topic.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #17.19 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:01 PM EST
                                          RushRules

                                          I'm not going to get into what happened this election, as my answers would start a whole nother arguement and I would rather beat my head against a wall than debate it with a Dem. But as a Republican, I haven't seen these "jumping ship" or "asking for suggestions".

                                          But, as for Barry's books, let's go strictly off "The Audacity of Hope". I am going to give you 3 instances directly from the book (I drive a lot so listen to audiobooks, so I am saying this FROM HIS OWN WORDS IN HIS OWN VOICE) that will destroy the stock market and cause a crash. Your job, if you accept it, will be to give 3 instances from the very same book that will cause the stock market to grow. I say strictly from the book because I don't think the person that wrote that book is going to be the President. I think the real Obama is going to spend more time listening and realize his ideas won't work. And by the way, when I said "Barry is a socialist scum", you missed where that was AN EXAMPLE of going off topic. Not a personal view of the man. Don't get me wrong. I do think he is a socialist, but not scum. Heck, I fully intended on voting for the man until I listened to his book.

                                          1. Tax the rich. Who has a better chance of getting the "Big 3" out of the hole? Someone that can afford to buy a new automobile every year? Or Joe Middleclass that is making enough to get by and always buys used cars. With less disposable income, they will spend a lot less. Also, they already pay most of the taxes (something like top 15% pay 95% of all taxes. Something Dems ignore).

                                          2. Capital Gains Tax increase. I THINK this one should be obvious, but if not, why would people put more in the stock market if it's going to cost more to get out? Doesn't make sense. And while maybe it wouldn't destroy the stock market, it sure as heck won't help it.

                                          3.Increase Corporate Tax. This one is the biggest danger, and that's why I bring it up so much. We have already lost so much industry to overseas. And it's not the "greedy money hungry CEO's" doing it. It's just good business. If a Toyota costs $20k, but a Ford cost $30k just because of the taxes, which car are MOST people going to buy? And in order to become competitive, Ford has to do what it can to bring their price down to $20k. So what do they do? Move to the same environment Toyota uses.

                                          Ok, now your turn.

                                          Chick76.......Maybe because I'm a Republican and didn't see "the sky is falling" every time Bush's name was mentioned, but in those 7 years, my income increased substantially, I bought my dream home (at 4%), have a portfolio and retirement, putting my wife through college without the help of any government, support my parents (something I always hoped I could do), help out my kids when I can, and even had enough left over to put cable television in my sports car!

                                          So I guess it was just the most prosperous years for me. And yes, it was true prosperity. Matter of fact, until Barry decides to take my money, the future looks pretty good too. As for the stock market, I dumped my main stocks right before the crash. :)

                                          If Barry does what I think he's going to do, I think we'll be ok. A lot of Dems are going to be pretty upset without their welfare checks, but the country will be ok.

                                            #17.20 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:48 PM EST
                                            RushRules

                                            D Holmes

                                            Your ignoring the diffeerence between tax rate and .

                                             As the Washington Post and the non-profit group .'"

                                            And your off topic.

                                            If you haven't noticed, EVERY ONE of my posts are responses, not topics. So want me to stay on topic? Quit asking me questions that are off topic or making statements that are off topic and require a response.

                                            Or is this the "Hollywood" version of debate where "You" get to say anything you wish, but no one has any right (or ability) to speak for the opposition?

                                              #17.21 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:58 PM EST
                                              Trog-221687

                                              I didn't ask you a question.

                                                #17.22 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:06 AM EST
                                                Crusher.

                                                DHolmes or RushRules (whichever moniker you prefer)

                                                Without getting too in-depth and thus further off topic, I have a couple of points to address about Ireland's corp tax rate.  I'm uniquely situated to comment since I'm a US citizen (born here) who recently became an Irish citizen (dual citizenship, technically also a citizen of the EU). 

                                                First point, Ireland's corp tax rate is now 12.5% not 11% as stated by McCain in the debates.  Second, the whole island is the size of the state of Maine, not exactly large enough to sustain the number of businesses that we have here.  Which brings me to my third point; other nations similar in scope to the US have thusly similar corp tax rates.  Therefore comparing our corp tax rate to that of a small country like Ireland is not a valid argument because there are vast differences between the US and Ireland, as far as corporations go. 

                                                Your overall point isn't lost though; I understand that a lower corp tax rate such as Ireland's would encourage rapid corp growth.  However, you might also consider this, lowering taxes (corporate or any other) doesn't increase government revenue.  The massive amount of spending to shore up banks and other businesses, 7+ years of war, and huge tax cuts, has rapidly increased our national debt.  So after all of this, we have nothing to show for it, except an economic crisis.  No matter who won in the recent election; taxes are pretty much guaranteed to go up at some point. 

                                                I think the national debt is a very important thing to address before it gets even more out of control.  Both parties have to give up something in return for addressing the national debt.  Therefore I think raising taxes and cutting spending is the most fiscally sound thing we can do at this point.  Once we erase our national debt, then we can start talking about a dramatic reduction in taxes to everyone.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #17.23 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:48 AM EST
                                                Dharma Girl

                                                 think the national debt is a very important thing to address before it gets even more out of control.  Both parties have to give up something in return for addressing the national debt.  Therefore I think raising taxes and cutting spending is the most fiscally sound thing we can do at this point.  Once we erase our national debt, then we can start talking about a dramatic reduction in taxes to everyone.

                                                ~turning pale, clutching heart and gasping~  You...you...

                                                ...you want us to actually pay for what we spend???

                                                ~faints~

                                                Um...I know it looks like it makes perfect sense, Crusher...but do you think it could ever catch on?

                                                Thank you for a little dose of sanity.  Are you a Republican?  :)

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #17.24 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:54 AM EST
                                                chick76

                                                Rushrules

                                                Congrats on having a successful 7 years, it actually wasn't bad for me either, but you have to look at the big picture.  Is it prosperity that we have the highest amount of debt and the lowest amount to savings in years?  Is it prosperity that people bought houses they couldn't afford or refinanced when they shouldn't and are now losing their homes?  Sorry, but that doesn't sound very prosperous to me.

                                                Arthur

                                                Sorry for going off topic.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #17.25 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:00 PM EST
                                                Crusher.

                                                Are you a Republican?  :)

                                                LOL, hell NO!

                                                  #17.26 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:06 PM EST
                                                  Dharma Girl

                                                  Well, it was worth a try.  You would have been a wonderful, redeeming example :)

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #17.27 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:15 PM EST
                                                  Dharma Girl

                                                  chick76:

                                                  Rushrules

                                                  Congrats on having a successful 7 years, it actually wasn't bad for me either, but you have to look at the big picture.

                                                  I'm afraid he doesn't.  Or think that he should.

                                                  I have some friends who have sworn for years that the slogan of the Republican Party is "I've got MINE--screw you!"  I don't believe that is true, but I suppose you wouldn't look to someone with "Rush" in his chosen screen name to do anything to debunk that stereotype.

                                                    #17.28 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:21 PM EST
                                                    chick76

                                                    Hey Dharma Girl

                                                    It does seem sometimes like that is their slogan, but I also agree with you that most are not like that.  I have many friends and family that are repubs and they are very generous.

                                                    LOL about "Rush".

                                                      #17.29 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:01 PM EST
                                                      Reply
                                                      corperateties

                                                      Why bother. Soon as they have licked their wounds and said :"Oh I'm sorry." In a couple yrs. they will be the same old bunch of parasitic elite that love to twist the knife.

                                                      How hard do you think it would be to wipe this nasty little political party completely out of the picture?

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      Reply#18 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:28 AM EST
                                                      kikaiju

                                                      They republican party is not licking its wounds.   The most vocal among them are insistent that they did nothing wrong and that the last election cycle was stolen from them by fraud or other crimes.  They're not wounded.  They're just very angry.

                                                      They are convinced that what they need to do is work that much harder for the next election.  They intend to simply do more of the things they have been doing, which includes the same religiously exclusive stance -only more of it.

                                                      There has been NO mention of changing what they do and who they are to fit the realities we all face and to bring in more supporters.  No, they are convinced they are right and all they need to do is get a bigger hammer to drive the same message home.

                                                      The "Republican" and "conservative" parties are really a sort of conservative religious party who have taken on the names of the larger party.   There ARE conservatives and Republicans who are able to operate without a platform of religious dominance but they've been drowned out by the evangelicals and sidelined and now many of those traditional Republicans have no place in their own party.  

                                                      Think about it: if you are a conservative republican who doesn't believe in God, or perhaps you are Hindu, where do you go?  Your political party is run by people who don't want you.

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #18.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:36 PM EST
                                                      Schroedingers Cat

                                                      Have you ever tried to get rid of roaches? It's going to be that hard to get rid of them. First you must remove the drug that they need, Religion, then take away their food scource,Money!

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #18.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:22 PM EST
                                                      Reply
                                                      jwc2blue

                                                      I met my first "Born Again" in the late 70s' while serving in the Navy in San Diego. Having always considered my self open-minded, we had a discussion about his beliefs. Actually it was more like me trying to get information while fending off his relentless recruitment effort.

                                                       Between then and now, I've learned one thing. Fundamentalists of any stripe have a tendency to justify their own actions by doing them in the name of their god, even if those actions are self-serving, immoral or even illegal.

                                                       I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is a free country. When any group starts to organize around a religious doctrine and influence those who are charged with representing ALL of us, we have problems.

                                                       I don't think it's caused by the groups themselves, but the politicians who cater to them in order to win an election because they must then enact policy to placate their base.

                                                       It's a slippery slope and we've been slipping for a while.

                                                      • 6 votes
                                                      Reply#19 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:54 AM EST
                                                      Max 3PO

                                                      "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

                                                      --George Bush Sr. (President of the United States)

                                                      Separation between Church and State, it's not a hard concept to grasp, but one the Bush Administrations have not paid attention to.  I wish other Christians would stick to the basic, accepting Jesus Christ as their own personal saviour. I live my life to my own personal belief, with the help of Christ. My saviour is Jesus, not the pope, not any of the above that damn others to hell. Everyone has the right of choice, "Free Will" you accept it or you don't. No man has ever been put on this Earth to judge others of their religious belief, not even Jesus Christ. Jesus died for our sins, he didn't die to judge others. There aren't good Christians or bad Christians, only Christians. Our day of judgement will be one on one, I accepted Jesus Christ to help thru that day, I hope others will do the same. As a Christian, I did today what Christ asked me to do, tell others.

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      Reply#20 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:31 AM EST
                                                      RushRules

                                                      I must have slept through it. Exactly what church did the Bush administration create, force to conform to government standards, force the people to attend, or force out of existance? OH! You thought separation of church and state meant that a government official can't mention God. Riiiiiight. That's what it means. lol

                                                      • 5 votes
                                                      #20.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:03 AM EST
                                                      Dharma Girl

                                                      D:

                                                      I guess you slept through something.  The quote invoked disbelief in God as a "reason" to disenfranchise American citizens, as well as deny their patriotism. 

                                                      You may think that is just fine, but it is hardly some innocuous "mention" of God. 

                                                      But it is nice that you are so easily amused.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #20.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:43 AM EST
                                                      RushRules

                                                      And that (even if it were true) is a violation of the first ammendment how? What LAW was created by congress to back up that quote? Sorry, but that was (again, if true and not twisted) just a Citizens view and nothing more. And has absolutely nothing to do with the 1st ammendment.

                                                      Not amused. How people interpret the 1st ammendment scares the hell out of me. lol

                                                      I'm agnostic, so if anyone should be upset by that, it would be me. But I don't care what PEOPLE'S views are. Now Congress passes that as a law, I might get a bit ticked.

                                                      (and there really isn't any argument that can be made here. The bush administration didn't create laws. They're called the EXECUTIVE branch)

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #20.3 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:02 AM EST
                                                      Brian-334867

                                                      D Holmles,

                                                      Whould you feel the same way if he had said, "I don't know that Christians or Muslims should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots."  How would that make you feel?

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #20.4 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:02 AM EST
                                                      RushRules

                                                      A-G-N-O-S-T-I-C.......google it. lol

                                                      Ok, I found that quote. It was given at a conservative fund raiser. So yeah, let's all get upset about it. Woohoo! Now that that is a total outrage....

                                                      What about what Obama said about Isreal at that other little get together? Or is this only a partisan thing? People say stuff to get money and to get elected. If we hold Bush accountable, then what of Obama? That wasn't a "tit for tat" statement, but more of how strong our freedom of speech is.

                                                      Still, what Bush said has absolutely nothing to do with the 1st ammendment. Even if he had said Hail Satan. And yes, the rest of us have to fight to the death for his right to say it. Even if we don't agree. That sucks, don't it? lol

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #20.5 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:11 AM EST
                                                      Brian-334867

                                                      Sorry D Holmles, I mistook you for a Christian.  I was trying to make a point and I too am agnostic (maybe something between agnostic and atheist).

                                                        #20.6 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:41 AM EST
                                                        RushRules

                                                        No Problem. Nope, just one of them thar "evil" republicans. ;)

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #20.7 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:47 AM EST
                                                        Dharma Girl

                                                        I didn't say it was a violaton of the First Amendment D, I said it wasn't innocuous for the president to say a group of Americans maybe weren't citizens because of their lack of belief in his God.

                                                        Having read some of your other posts, I can see that you wouldn't find it despicable. 

                                                        Not amused. How people interpret the 1st ammendment scares the hell out of me. lol

                                                        My mistake.  Generally when people indicate they are laughing, it isn't all about the fear. 

                                                        Maybe this will make you feel better--all that interpreting of the Amendments?  Only citizen opinions!  Remember?  No big deal at all.  Just like when a president says something--well, maybe a little different.  I'm betting Max hasn't issued 268 Executive Orders in the last 8 years.

                                                          #20.8 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:07 PM EST
                                                          RushRules

                                                          Interpretations have a tendency to become laws. Like when the "poll chasers" are in charge.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #20.9 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:15 PM EST
                                                          Dharma Girl

                                                          Not interpretations on Newsvine, actually.  (That would scare the hell out of me, and I wouldn't laugh about it.)  I believe we have our own special branch of the government to interpret law.  Perhaps you've heard of it.

                                                          But Executive Orders do.

                                                            #20.10 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:30 PM EST
                                                            corperateties

                                                            That's a hillaryious statement by bush that someone above quoted...........

                                                            What do you guys think bush would have to say about pagans?

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #20.11 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:47 PM EST
                                                            Dharma Girl

                                                            corporate:  Wouldn't that depend on whether someone explained to him what a pagan is?

                                                              #20.12 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:23 PM EST
                                                              Reply
                                                              Sandra-293107

                                                              Any Minister, Priest, Clergy, Preacher, Rabi (whatever) that brings politics into their message should start paying taxes now!  There have been clear violations of separation of Church and State for some time, and they are no longer tax exempt.  Great examples, Arthur!

                                                              I made the decision approximately 10 years ago to no longer practice any "formalized" religion, rather I consider myself a spiritual person who refuses to judge or criticize anyone for their religious or spiritual beliefs.

                                                              During the campaign, the Republican message (courtesy of Palin) categorized Muslims as "extremists."  Again, a violation of separation between Church and State, imho.  These statements appeared very "extreme" to me.   As long as we "teach" hatred and intolerance, that is the message sent to our children, and the cycle perpetuates itself. 

                                                              I've never been one to think in terms of herd-mentality.  My sincerest hope is that one day more people throughout our World will reach within.  Yes, I'm a Republican, and I've been ashamed of what I've heard coming out of the mouths of Republican leadership.  I believe this past election will transform the entire Republican party because, I for one, will not support (and didn't when I cast my ballot) such foolishness. 

                                                              • 4 votes
                                                              Reply#21 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:05 AM EST
                                                              ohiogal-479871

                                                              Why aren't we taxing churches again?  How many Churches have used religion to become million dollar corporations with leaders living in mansions and driving better cars than the parisherns  If these church leaders start acting like CEOs we need to start taxing their businesses.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #21.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:06 PM EST
                                                              Reply
                                                              jdoyle

                                                              It's funny how the far right ignored one of the most significant passages of the New Testament:

                                                               34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

                                                               35'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

                                                               36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me;I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

                                                               37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

                                                               38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

                                                               39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

                                                               40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

                                                               41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

                                                               42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

                                                               43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

                                                               44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'

                                                               45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

                                                               46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

                                                              http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&version=49

                                                              They ignore it because it doesn't fit in with their smug self satisfied"greed is a virtue" out look on life. Instead they focus on killing those who think differently.

                                                              • 5 votes
                                                              Reply#22 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:22 AM EST
                                                              RushRules

                                                              I'm dying? Why didn't anyone tell me! Heck, I feel healthy. Jeez, just when the government was going to be entertaining and funny once again. Doesn't that figure.

                                                              (Just saying a thing is true, doesn't make it true. Remember 8 years ago? Same thing was said about the Dems. EVERYONE knew the Dems were dead)

                                                              The past 8 years have been the most prosperous of my life. Do you REALLY think I would switch parties? Yes, that is what articles like this are meant to do. Get Republicans to "jump ship". Nah, I'll keep my sports cars, country house, and STILL support my parents and my kids. Unlike the "other side" I CAN spend my money better than the government and while it is terribly anti-PC, my family is WAY more important to me that my neighbors (or stangers I'll never meet). You know, that brings up a good point. You folks want to take all my money and "spread it around" but yet you don't give your own? Don't you find it a bit embarrassing that us terrible money hungry greedy Repubs give WAY more to charity than Dems? (think the number is documented like 80/20). Doesn't that make you feel a LITTLE bit like a hipocrite saying "help these poor people" and then not give anything?

                                                              We are alive and well, and hopefully, after 4 years, FINALLY get to stop the childish whining when you screw everything up. "They stole the election!", "They disinfranchise minorities", "They didn't listen to the majority!". When your front running Presidential Nominee doesn't understand how the electoral college works (Gore introducing himself as "The next President of the US), Do you really think you are going to fix the government? lol

                                                              As for this article.....I'm agnostic, and only vote pure republican ticket. Think I'm alone?

                                                              I SOOOOO hope Franken wins that election! That will totally make this election worth it. Wonder how many of his voters actually listened to him on Air America? I can just see him lose it on the Senate floor.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              Reply#23 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:53 AM EST
                                                              RushRules

                                                              Since no one here seems to have READ the First Amendment, let me post it for you.

                                                              Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

                                                              Now, for the win, where has ANY of the current or past administrations, Democrat OR Republican, broken the First Ammendment? Geez.....get a grip people.

                                                              Just saying "They clearly broke the separation of church and state" doesn't hold any merit. THEY are not the government. THEY are not Congress. THEY are people, and just like any other citizen, THEY have the right to give their beliefs. The bill of rights are for everyone.

                                                              You don't whine when your Rosie gets on her soapbox and calls Repubs terrorists. Why would it bother you so much that a Politician mentions god?

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              Reply#24 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:23 AM EST
                                                              gamerk2

                                                              and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

                                                              Can we impeach them all now? :D

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #24.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:46 AM EST
                                                              LadySaidy

                                                              You are right D Holmes, the Bill of Rights is for everyone, even politicians. And they are more then welcome to their beliefs.

                                                              I think what gets some people all atwitter is when these same-said politicians use their office as a pulpit. From an example above: you have a former president (Bush, Sr.) saying: "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

                                                              This is the type of thing that gets people angry. People in this country not only have the right to belief, they have the right to non-belief.

                                                              Now I'll finally get to my point. :)

                                                              The problem comes in when you have politicians trying to pass laws that they proudly and loudly state are to forward their own religious beliefs. That is where the line is crossed.

                                                              I have no problem with anyone believing in what ever they want. They could be pastafarians for all I care, but nobody has the right to try and turn this country into a "Christian Nation". The US can be considered a nation of faith, not a single religious dogma. Even those who proclaim to have no faith in a higher power are a part of the greatness that is this country.

                                                              We can all learn from each other.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #24.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:30 AM EST
                                                              Mark in Worcester

                                                              The United States is not a nation of faith. It is a nation of freedom. You are free to be a person of faith, regardless what that faith is. You are also free to not believe in anyone's god.

                                                              • 5 votes
                                                              #24.3 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:37 AM EST
                                                              RushRules

                                                              The problem comes in when you have politicians trying to pass laws that they proudly and loudly state are to forward their own religious beliefs. That is where the line is crossed.

                                                              Yes, you are 100% correct. At that point, and ONLY at that point, is the 1st ammendment violated.

                                                              What people in this country fail to see -- they hear it, but don't understand -- that freedom is not cheap. That doesn't mean money. That means that in order to keep our freedoms intact, the african american has to fight for the right of the skinhead to call him the "n" word. That sounds extreme, but it's true. If you don't fight for the rights of those that disagree with you, who is going to fight for your rights when they become infringed?

                                                              When I was in the military, that was presented to me just like that, and before that point, I never knew what freedom meant. More people need to understand the term "Freedom for All", not just "Freedom for those that think like I do".

                                                              And yes, I am now a disabled Vet, but yet I will fight, to the death, your right to burn the very flag I became disabled defending. Can you (general population) say the same?

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #24.4 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:38 AM EST
                                                              gecko85

                                                              What people in this country fail to see -- they hear it, but don't understand -- that freedom is not cheap.

                                                              Freedom costs a buck-o-nine.

                                                                #24.5 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:23 PM EST
                                                                LadySaidy

                                                                I agree D. My father is a disabled Vet, 23 years USAF.

                                                                I, too, may not agree with anything you say, but I will defend your right to say it. I may not be in the military, but I do serve my country in the ways that I can. I work elections to make sure that all the election laws are followed. I make sure my local representatives are being honest and fair. I also choose to keep myself informed about what goes on with our elected officials.

                                                                It isn't the military. But I do what I can.

                                                                And Mark - I said the US could be considered a country of faith, if one felt the need to label it something, but not of any particular dogma. That includes atheists, agnostics, and all those who have any kind of belief.

                                                                And yes, it is a country of Freedom. With that I entirely agree.

                                                                Peace.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #24.6 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:24 PM EST
                                                                Schroedingers Cat

                                                                You still don't have a grip on the problem do you D.

                                                                  #24.7 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:26 PM EST
                                                                  W Scott Lincoln

                                                                  Last time I checked, our elected officials swore upon the bible to uphold the constitution, they did not swear upon the constitution to uphold the bible.

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #24.8 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:02 PM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Dharma Girl

                                                                  The problem comes in when you have politicians trying to pass laws that they proudly and loudly state are to forward their own religious beliefs. That is where the line is crossed.

                                                                  Yes, you are 100% correct. At that point, and ONLY at that point, is the 1st ammendment violated.

                                                                  That is hardly the only point at which the First Amendment can be violated.  You POSTED the First, you have to know it doesn't say

                                                                  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances...

                                                                  "...on religious grounds."

                                                                  And you don't have to be former military to defend Constitutionally protected rights.  In fact, a lot of the military personnel posting on these message boards seem to be quite grumpy about the fact that people who don't agree with them get to say so.

                                                                    Reply#25 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:26 PM EST
                                                                    RushRules

                                                                    I'm not sure I understand. "On religious grounds" is not in the first ammendment. Am I missing something there?

                                                                    In the instance of a Politician invoking God, the only time it becomes a violation of the 1st ammendment is at which point that politician trys to make their beliefs law. Now take into consideration that if it is law, then the others would be blanketed (right to assemble and so forth) as they would automatically become illegal under a federally mandated religion.

                                                                    Getting grumpy is a lot different than defending. I might call someone a moron or even yell at someone for their point of view, but I would defend their right to voice it.

                                                                    My military statement was only to say at what point I learned what freedom was. Personal experience only. Where did you get that military is the only ones that can defend the constitution? Starship Troopers? I said it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to defend the rights of others. Even when you disagree.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #25.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:37 PM EST
                                                                    Dharma Girl

                                                                    See, D?  Lady Saidy isn't former military (assumption that she would so state) and she would absolutely defend your right to free speech.

                                                                    gecko:  #&*( Yeah!!

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #25.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:37 PM EST
                                                                    LadySaidy

                                                                    Just a former military brat. My brother would say emphasis on brat. ;)

                                                                      #25.3 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:43 PM EST
                                                                      Dharma Girl

                                                                      Didn't mean to be cryptic, D, that is why I posted what both you and Lady Saidy posted before my comment.

                                                                      She said "the problem", she didn't say that the First Amendment could ONLY be violated on religious grounds.  It doesn't say, for instance,  

                                                                      ...or abridging the freedom of speech on religious grounds,"

                                                                      But reading your post 25.1, it appears that you were applying what Lady Saidy posted only to First Amendment issues, not really stating that what she posted was the ONLY time that the First could be violated.  Even though that was verbatim what you stated.

                                                                      I don't understand your second paragraph though (and this time I know I don't understand what you are saying.)

                                                                      Now talk into consideration that if it is law, then the others would be blanketed (right to assemble and so forth) as they would automatically become illegal under a federally mandated religion.

                                                                      I don't see how mandating a state religion would automatically make illegal what was formerly protected, other than the right to worship according to one's own conscience.  How would that make it automatic that you couldn't petition the government for redress of grievances, or have a free press?  Perhaps I am misunderstanding your intent again.

                                                                        #25.4 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:58 PM EST
                                                                        Dharma Girl

                                                                        Lady Saidy:  :)  That must be a brother thing--I've been enjoying your posts and never once thought "brat"!

                                                                        I really admire people who keep our elections free and fair.  I have a co-worker who is a serious fundamentalist Christian who does that.  (I think it is especially admirable in her case, because seeing Democrats turn out really raises her blood pressure.)

                                                                          #25.5 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:04 PM EST
                                                                          LadySaidy

                                                                          Thank you very much. I think my brother would still disagree, even though we are both in the 35-45 age group.

                                                                          This past election I worked as an Alternate Election Judge in one of the reddest counties in Texas (Yes, there are counties redder then red state Texas). The main judge was a fundamentalist Christian who also happened to be one of the nicest, fairest people I've met.

                                                                          There were a couple of areas where one or the other questioned how to handle something that came up, but we talked about it and worked it out.

                                                                          I think 99% of people that work the elections, as either judges or clerks, do so out of their own sense of duty. It's one of the reasons I started doing it.

                                                                          Anyone can, as long as you are registered to vote. Contact your local party, or county election official, to find out how you can help. Sometimes it's something as simple as being a clerk and handing people stickers. Sometimes it's answering the phone calls from people with questions. Or it could be helping to count ballots.

                                                                          Get involved. It's my mantra. :)

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #25.6 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:10 PM EST
                                                                          Dharma Girl

                                                                          :)  I have recently moved to a very tiny community, with long-time locals fighting over who gets to run the polling place each election, and critiquing each other's performance quite harshly, both in person and online, on a local message board.  There is definitely LOTS of dedicated "oversight!"

                                                                          Newbies have to be involved in other ways.  That is a great mantra  :)

                                                                            #25.7 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:32 PM EST
                                                                            Reply
                                                                            RushRules

                                                                            AH, I think I get it. I'm only arguing Church and State, but you want to make my entire arguement invalid by showing I am not covering the right to assemble, right to petition, etc.

                                                                            Right?

                                                                            Got it. Under the previous posts, saying that they violated church and state, the only point at which they have violated the 1st ammendment is when they try to create laws. Nothing in this discussion dealt with right to assemble or right to petition.

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            Reply#26 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:43 PM EST
                                                                            Dharma Girl

                                                                            Nope, not trying to invalidate your argument, I simply thought what you posted was incorrect.   I addressed this at #25.4.

                                                                             I took Lady Saidy's comment that:

                                                                            The problem comes in when you have politicians trying to pass laws that they proudly and loudly state are to forward their own religious beliefs. That is where the line is crossed.

                                                                            to refer to the line between what is acceptable to the rest of us, and what is not, not  to refer to establishing a federally mandated religion.  (For instance, outlawing abortion under any circumstances because "abortion is against God's Law", or outlawing gay marriage because "homosexuality is an abomination against God".  Neither establishes a state religion, but both are intended to forward some religious beliefs.)

                                                                            Perhaps Lady Saidy was only referring to establishing a state religion, but that wasn't what I read.  I haven't heard of any politician actually trying that, so

                                                                            when you have politicians trying to pass laws that they proudly and loudly state are to forward their own religious beliefs

                                                                            didn't mean enacting a state religion to me.

                                                                            For you then to say that this would be the ONLY time the First Amendment was violated by a politician seemed incorrect to me.

                                                                            As for nothing dealing with the other First Amendment rights--you posted it, including those parts.  And then you posted:

                                                                             Now take into consideration that if it is law, then the others would be blanketed (right to assemble and so forth) as they would automatically become illegal under a federally mandated religion.

                                                                            Which, as I posted, I really didn't get.  But you certainly brought them into the discussion.

                                                                              #26.1 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:22 PM EST
                                                                              RushRules

                                                                              Sorry, just now caught up on this....

                                                                              o refer to the line between what is acceptable to the rest of us, and what is not, not  to refer to establishing a federally mandated religion.  (For instance, outlawing abortion under any circumstances because "abortion is against God's Law", or outlawing gay marriage because "homosexuality is an abomination against God".  Neither establishes a state religion, but both are intended to forward some religious beliefs.)

                                                                              Now this is my own take, but I see both of these issues as "hiding behind religion", not using religion as a basis. People are against abortion. That's all there is to it. People don't like it. They aren't willing to look at any opposition (welfare mom's, abuse, rape, etc.) it's just wrong. This is one area where I would say I am still somewhat liberal (at one time I was registered democrat). The "religious" aspect is just to add "stregth" to the arguement. Nothing else.

                                                                              Now the homosexual thing? That is driven by the economy, I gaurantee you! Same thing, using religion to add support, but from a political standpoint, it's economical. If you allow it, then roommates could sponge off the insurance companies or any other rights of married people. All they have to do is say their gay. That is a "perceived" nightmare to the insurance groups. I'm not a true conservative on that either. I'm more like I don't care either way. While yes, roommates of opposite sex could do the same, but there is a limit to the abuse. Same sex opens a whole new area of abuse. Note I said "perceived". I don't think it would be that big of an issue, but with just the possibility out there, it'll never happen.

                                                                              Just my take.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #26.2 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:31 PM EST
                                                                              Dharma Girl

                                                                              Maybe you don't work with fundamentalist Christians--I'm sure you are not the daughter of one :)  What I have seen is quite different than what you describe.

                                                                              The ones I work with are sincere in their horror and conviction that both of those issues are "flat-out against God." 

                                                                              Some of them were losing sleep about God punishing all of us because we had a few months before Prop 8 could be voted on.  Some of them lose sleep over the ungodly "Holocaust" we have permitted since Roe v. Wade.  These are people working in the legal field, who are fully aware that "murder" is defined as the unlawful taking of a life, who habitually use the word "murder" to describe legal abortions.

                                                                              I don't take their really poor "scientific" or "logical" arguments against abortion as a sign that their faith is not 100% engaged.  These are, for the most part, intelligent people.  If their faith was NOT 100% engaged, they could make much better arguments.

                                                                              (My take, based on my experience, of course.)

                                                                              Thank you for your responses.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #26.3 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:43 PM EST
                                                                              Dharma Girl

                                                                              oops...

                                                                              Getting grumpy is a lot different than defending. I might call someone a moron or even yell at someone for their point of view, but I would defend their right to voice it.

                                                                              Well, yes, that was kind of what I was saying.  Posting that they want to shoot Jane Fonda and me in the head--not a ringing defense of my right to free speech (or even life...) 

                                                                              My military statement was only to say at what point I learned what freedom was. Personal experience only. Where did you get that military is the only ones that can defend the constitution? Starship Troopers? I said it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to defend the rights of others. Even when you disagree.

                                                                              I didn't say that (but hey--I loved Starship Troopers when I was a kid!) but

                                                                              And yes, I am now a disabled Vet, but yet I will fight, to the death, your right to burn the very flag I became disabled defending. Can you (general population) say the same?

                                                                              didn't look like an exhortation to go and do likewise to me--I thought it looked downright skeptical.  And I defend people's rights a lot.

                                                                              Again, thank you for responding.  Clarification rocks!

                                                                                #26.4 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:02 PM EST
                                                                                RushRules

                                                                                Ok, I think we're going to get in an arguement again here.....lol

                                                                                Jane Fonda went WAY beyond free speach. Yes, she has the right to say anything she wants. She has to right to go were ever she wishes. However, to go to a country where our people are beingkilled or held prisoner, then calling them killers may even be getting into a serious grey area.

                                                                                But, when the prisoners lined up and snuck her messages to take back to america, and then she handed those messages over to the North Vietnamese when she reaches the end of the line? I'm sorry, that is treason no matter how you look at it. She cost the lives of MANY American soldiers. If it were anyone else, they would have been tried, convicted, and shot. At the very least, not allowed back into the country. That is called collaboration with the enemy and was ever bit as disastrous as the Rosenbergs. That isn't me being angry or upset or voicing my dislike of her. That is the facts. You can't give secrets to our enemies without some form of retribution.

                                                                                Think that might be where we will never see eye to eye.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                #26.5 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:16 PM EST
                                                                                Dharma Girl

                                                                                A few of them said they wanted to shoot Jane Fonda and ME, D.  You think I've committed treason?  I don't actually know Jane Fonda, but I suppose now I will have to see if she can be defended, since they want to shoot both of us.

                                                                                The accusation against Fonda apparently originates from a that has been widely circulated via email. According to the letter: 

                                                                                [The POWs] had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN [Social Security number] on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper.

                                                                                She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge and handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. [Larry] Carrigan was almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know about her actions that day.

                                                                                 But Carrigan does not corroborate the letter's claims. David Emery of the Urban Legends and Folklore website at about.com has :

                                                                                "It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, whom I reached by phone at his home in Arizona. Carrigan, who was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967, says he has no idea why this story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda," he told me. It goes without saying he never handed her a secret message.

                                                                                The quotes attributed to Carrigan in Emery's account refuting the rumor have been published in several newspapers, including the September 19, 2000, edition of the Oregonian and the May 25, 2001, edition of the New York Daily News.

                                                                                Emery also debunked another baseless attack on Fonda from the -- that another former POW, Air Force pilot Jerry Driscoll, spat on Fonda in Vietnam and was severely beaten for his actions. As Emery noted, Driscoll called the accusation "the product of a very vivid imagination."

                                                                                Boy, that was hard.  Debunking an email hoax.  It's on Snopes, too.

                                                                                  #26.6 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:10 PM EST
                                                                                  RushRules

                                                                                  --To her credit, during a 20/20 television interview sixteen years later in 1988 with Barbara Walters, Jane Fonda apologized for her incredibly bad judgement in going to North Vietnam and allowing herself to be used as a propaganda vehicle. --

                                                                                        "I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did," she began. "I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I'm . . . very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families."

                                                                                  Wow, even Jane believed the internet hoax! Nah, you're ok. ;)

                                                                                  Never said I wanted her shot. Just that what she did was treason. And the sentence for treason during wartime is.......

                                                                                  ;)

                                                                                    #26.7 - Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:27 PM EST
                                                                                    Dharma Girl

                                                                                    You are right, we aren't going to see eye to eye as long as you can only support your position with something that isn't true.  What you stated was treason was bull@!$%#.  The person referenced in the story--the victim--says it never happened. 

                                                                                    Your response is that she apologized for something...but that wasn't for what you said she did--since she didn't do it.  Trying to mimic the terminally 'cute' Governor Palin doesn't make it look any better  ~wink wink~  It's still just crap, and with only crap to support your contention...I guess that is all you need.  The Republican Party does seem to have an unusual loyalty to lies, but I had assumed that the individuals who make up the party could do better.  We live and learn.  So...you don't even have to be a check-your-brain-at-the-door Christian to cling to the lies...

                                                                                    I think your new screen name is very informative.  Rush doesn't have any use for the truth, either, in making his points.  I have heard him twice, asked by a real journalist about lies he's spouted on the air, reply "I am an entertainer--I don't have to tell the truth!" 

                                                                                    Maybe you think you are entertaining.  That is just sad.

                                                                                      #26.8 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:20 AM EST
                                                                                      Fausts son

                                                                                      Rush Limbaugh rules the seventh circle of hades!

                                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                                      #26.9 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:25 AM EST
                                                                                      Dharma Girl

                                                                                       Hmm...that is the one with the violent people, right?  I suppose that fits.  All that bile and bluster sounds violent, and he certainly does violence to things like truth, dignity, honor, decency...

                                                                                      Was it the First Ring in that circle that was reserved for suicides, those who turned their violence on themselves...?  Oh, dear, he isn't back on the heavy, illicit drugs again, is he?  :(

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      #26.10 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:16 PM EST
                                                                                      Fausts son

                                                                                      Dharma girl,

                                                                                      I will have to get my Divine Comedy out and like Sarah, I'll get back at'cha.

                                                                                        #26.11 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:51 PM EST
                                                                                        Dharma Girl

                                                                                        ~shudder~  Please, Fausts...not like Sarah?

                                                                                          #26.12 - Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:57 PM EST
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